The Fox Hollow Farm: The Case And The Hauntings That Followed

A quiet mansion on 18 acres. An indoor pool in the basement. A string of men who vanish after nights out in Indianapolis. Fox Hollow Farm isn’t just a haunted location people whisper about, it’s the center of a case that still makes your stomach drop once you see how long it took the pieces to connect.

We walk through the rise of Herbert R. Baumeister from an outwardly successful husband, father, and business owner to a suspected serial killer tied to disappearances from downtown gay bars in the late 80s and early 90s. We also unpack the survivor story that helped break the case open, the investigation’s dead ends, and the moment police finally gain access to the property only to uncover thousands of human bones and fragments scattered through woods and a creek bed. Along the way, we talk about the brutal reality of early DNA testing costs and how hard it was for families to get answers.

Then we shift into the paranormal side that gives Fox Hollow Farm its second reputation. We cover reports from later owners and investigators, why the basement pool and pump room keep coming up, and the theories we hear again and again: residual trauma, a portal connected to water, and the unsettling idea of something darker that mimics Baumeister for its own gain. We also share why we appreciate a grounded approach like Richard Estep’s The Horrors of Fox Hollow Farm, where debunking matters and “nothing happened” is still part of the truth.

Subscribe for more true crime and paranormal history, share this with a friend who loves the dark corners of both worlds, and leave a review with your take: do you think Fox Hollow Farm is haunted by victims, a mimic, or something else entirely?

Thank you for listening to the Paranormal Peeps Podcast.  Check us out on Facebook Paranormal Peeps Podcast or Coldspot Paranormal Research and on Instagram coldspot_paranormal_research

Transcript

Welcome To Fox Hollow Farm

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Between the realm of the dead and the journeys of the living, join Josh, Jamie, and Elisa as they delve into the vast world of the paranormal and breathe life back into the history of the departed.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome to the Paranormal Peeps Podcast. I'm Josh.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

I'm Elisa. And I'm Jamie. So some places earn their darkness through legend. Others earn it through what is found beneath the leaves. Fox Hollow Farm looked like the perfect home. 18 acres of Indiana countryside. Room for children to play, a large house tucked away from the noise of the city, and a family trying to build a successful life. But behind that quiet, picture perfect exterior was something far more disturbing. Tonight, we step into the story of Herbert R. Baumeister, a husband, father, business owner, and suspected serial killer, whose property would become one of Indiana's most chilling crime scenes. What began with disappearances from the gay bars of the downtown Indianapolis area would eventually lead investigators to Fox Hollow Farm, where thousands of human bone fragments were discovered scattered through the woods and creek beds. But this case is more than the horror story what was found. It's also the story of missed warnings, hidden lives, a survivor who lived to tell what happened, and families who spent years searching for answers. Today, Fox Hollow Farm carries another kind of reputation. Some say the land is still restless, that the echoes of what happened there never truly went silent. So turn down the lights and settle in and join us as we uncover the tragic history, the unanswered questions, and the lingering darkness of Fox Hollow Farm.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yeah. So we've all heard of Fox Hollow Farm.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

It is known. It is commonly known. Like I wouldn't say everybody knows, but I think a lot of people. I don't think it's as well known as like Waverly Hills, right? But I think it's it's pretty it's pretty well known.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

I think for if you're a true crime enthusiast, I think you know of Fox Hollow Farms for sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

But the paranormal, yeah, it's known, but I don't think it's as like you said, it's uh as well known.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

It's not as well known.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

But I just realized I didn't realize it was in Indian in Indiana. We're going through Indiana.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I know. And do you know the current owners uh actually let people in through there?

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Oh, no way.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Uh a few times a year, they allow investigator teams, investigation teams to come in and go through it. Now that's cool. At least in the book I just read. So I would say as as uh as of 2019.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Seven years ago.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It's longer than you think, but I'm I'm thinking they still are as long as they still own it. I think they do. I think they do. All right, so Herbert R. Baumeister. So he was born April 7th of 1947 in Indian Indianapolis, Indiana. And his parents were Dr. Herbert Baumeister and Elizabeth Baumeister. So his dad was a doctor. He had three siblings, and he grew up in a Midwestern middle class family. So they were, you know, middle of the road, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Middle of the road in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

In the middle of the road in the middle. Um so his father, Dr. Baumeister, was an anesthesiologist, and he practiced at Meth Methodist Hospital nearby. It was actually pretty close to where they lived.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Uh the family was well liked and from a distance seemed normal. Normal, in quotes. Quotations there.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

Don't we all seem normal? Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Like, oh, you guys go look for ghosts. You're weird.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

I think you have to be a little kooky to live in today's world, if I'm being honest. Just to get a response from her. Like, I don't know a kid that would do that.

SPEAKER_05 4:27

Not a dead crow.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Not a dead, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:30

I mean, I've heard a kid's like a mouse or something, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

I mean a big old crow? A big old dead crow. They're not small. No, they no, crows are not small. So this and other reports from uh his school prompted Herb's father to have his son uh looked at, like tested. So I think his father sensed that there was something not quite right with his dad's a doctor, right? Yes, I think he saw the signs beyond the school reports of the dead bird. He also would talk to his uh fellow classmates about what it would be like to drink your own urine.

Baumeister’s Early Red Flags

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Ew.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

So I don't really I mean kids talk about weird things. I growing up, I never heard any of my classmates say something along those lines, but I mean, I think boys more than girls.

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Yeah, well, for sure. Have weirder conversations, but I mean, I think there are certain types of people that have like weird intrusive thoughts. Sure. But they just don't speak them out loud. Right. But Herb definitely was not that kid. He definitely had those intrusive thoughts, then he didn't have a filter as a kid.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah. No filter between his brain and his mouth. So his father did have him tested, and but he did it in secret. Um, so the records that actually still exist are really limited in what they tell us about him and those tests, but they did clearly state that the diagnosis of schizophrenia was there and the possibility of more than one personality. So multiple personality and schizophrenia.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

And schizophrenia. Right. That's a combination. That's not a good one.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Not usually.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

No. Give me one example of where it is, but moving on.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Let me think for a little while.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

All right, so okay, you do that. I'm gonna move on. So now we're gonna jump to high school. So Herb was enrolled in high school in 1961 at North Central, and among all his peers, Herb was just an average student, and he never really fit into any group of students. You know how you have like the popular or the sports and all the things, right? He didn't fit into he was kind of a loner. Yeah, he was just on his own. So he graduated in 1965, and then at Indiana University, he went to study anatomy as his major.

unknown 7:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

So for college.

SPEAKER_05 7:07

This is like heading down a path I can already see.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Right? You can already kind of see it. Yeah. Yeah. So he actually wanted to become a doctor like his father was. And while attending university, Herb met his future wife. And the two bonded and they shared a lot of similar political views as well as other interests. So a bond was formed. Right. But Herb ended up dropping out of college and he ended up moving back to Indianapolis, Indianapolis, and started to work for the Indianapolis Star newspaper.

SPEAKER_05 7:40

Well, that's a totally different turn.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, he just and it doesn't say why he dropped out. Like it was just very brief. Just that he dropped out. In 1971, Herb married the girl that he met in college, and she was actually working as a teacher while he worked at the paper. So then a short few months later in 1972, Herb had an emotional breakdown, and this was reportedly over a problem with a car repair. So in my mind, it's maybe one of those things where a lot of little things were happening. And this was the end of the and this was just the one that sent him over, right? It wasn't really about the car repair. Right. It was just yet another thing. Yeah, that's right. And he was just like, I'm done. Right. So he spent two months in a psychiatric hospital. When he was released, he secured a job with the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles. His behavior started to become odd, and he one year sent out Christmas cards to his coworkers that contain a photo of himself along with another man, and they were dressed in drag. And then he also sent a card addressed to the governor that was soaked in urine.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Oh, gross.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

At which point he was then fired from his job. You know, they found out about all this and they're like, you're done.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah, I can't imagine like sending the postcard or you know, Christmas Christmas card to the governor of the state as a and it's been peed on? Yeah. And you peed on it.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

Can you imagine the smell of just the envelope?

SPEAKER_02 9:24

I'm surprised.

SPEAKER_05 9:25

How did it make it that far? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Well, maybe the mailman that who the person that was doing the sorting um smell.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Well, either that or you know how they have a mass amount of Christmas cards that time of year, and it's just they're trying to get through it and they just weren't near it long enough to notice it.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Or he dropped it in the mailboxes personally.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

I mean, that's a possibility. I have no idea. That's true. Okay, so Herb and his wife had their first child, which was a daughter, in 1979. Then in 1981, they actually welcomed a son, and then in 1984, another daughter followed. So Herb seemed to be a very loving dad, and all of his children did attend private school. Herb and his wife and their children spent a good deal of time at Herb's parents' lake house. Um, so it was well, it was like a condo, actually, and it was at Lake Wawase. It's W-A-W-A-S-E-E. Yeah, Wawasi. Yeah, Lake Wawasse. Um, so that's in northern Indiana. Okay. So in 1985, Herb was arrested on a drunk driving slash hit and run charge while visiting his parents. Then just a year later, he was arrested yet again for being uh for his involvement in a possible insurance fraud scheme. So he ended up a great man. Right upstanding citizen.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Solid.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

But he ended up being acquitted of that charge. So, no lesson learned. In 1988, Herb and his wife wanted to open a thrift store. So they ended up borrowing a few thousand dollars from Herb's mother, roughly around $4,000. So the business was called Save a Lot. So the idea of the business is to bring in like donations of household goods, clothing, and then sell them at discount prices. So like DI, goodwill.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Same concept, right? Just smaller.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Except private instead of like a nonprofit.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Exactly. So part of their earnings would go to the Indianapolis Children's Bureau, basically like a children's hospital and charity. So that was kind of cool that they would donate a portion of the proceeds that they brought in, right? And then they, of course, would take their cut for their living because that was obviously their lifeline at the time. So in 1990, uh he and his wife opened a second store because the first one was doing so well that they opened up a second one on the north side. And in 1991, he and his wife's business was still doing so, both of them were doing so well that they decided, hey, let's start looking for a new house. So they looked at a property that was on 18 acres and known as Fox Hollow Farm. It was away from the city and had so much space for their children to run and play. In their eyes, it was absolutely the perfect place to call home. So the owner at the time of the property was willing to sell to Herb and his wife for a small down payment and then what's known as like a balloon payment in the next five years. So you put a small amount down, and then within that next like four or five years, you're gonna pay the whole thing, right? My mom had to do that.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah, it is a it was a typical loan process.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. Not not really common today, I don't think. I think it was more common.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yes. It was more common back then. It still happens today, usually though, and on it happens now on million-dollar homes.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah. So yeah, because I mean at the time this home was listed, okay, and this is back in 1991, okay. So, and it was listed at I think somewhere around 945,000. But this home is massive, it's like a mansion. It was over, I think, 9,000 square feet. Holy on 18 acres. I mean, I'm sure it was beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Let's see, in Utah today, that's $10,000 to $12 million.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 13:39

More money than we all can afford right now.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Together. Yeah. So, you know, they they move in this house and everything's going really well, and the children were doing really well in school, and their business was thriving. So life was good.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Let's talk about some of these disappearances. Okay. So we're gonna jump around just a little bit here. 1985 was actually the beginning of the deaths and disappearances. So the body of a 17-year-old male was actually found alongside Roadside in Indiana. His name was Eric, and I can't pronounce his last name, so we'll just we'll just say Eric. Let's stick with Eric. Then in 1989, another man's body was discovered along Interstate 70, which is just east of Indianapolis in Hancock County. Okay, and his name was Stephen Elliott, and he was just 26 years old. Now, in 1990, 32-year-old Clay Boatman was found between Indianapolis and Columbus, Ohio. So over

Marriage, Jobs, And Public Masks

SPEAKER_00 14:40

a decade, so 1980 to 1990, there were around nine other bodies that would be discovered between Columbus, Ohio, Ohio, and Indianapolis, Indiana. All male. Like, all men. So 1993, Michael Riley, along with Johnny Byer, would disappear as well. Then in July of the same year, Jeffrey Jones and Richard Hamilton followed.

SPEAKER_05 15:08

So he's getting brave.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yep. And then in August, Alan Livingston. So they were they were all found to be men who hung around the gay bars in downtown Indianapolis. So now we're coming up, they're all gay men from downtown bars of Indianapolis.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

So Yep. And it's still at the time, if you think about it, we're in the 80s, 90s, early 90s, where there was still a lot of secrecy around being gay in that time.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah. Yes and no, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:40

I mean, like it was getting better, but it was still hard. Yes, it was still tough.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

So like most people, I'm sure we're we're leaning the same way too, but a lot of people started to expect there was a ser serial killer on the loose targeting the gay bars. I mean, duh, right? The disappearances continued into 1994 and were reported by their families. Uh, one of the families of one of the missing men went as far as to hire a private detective who was actually a retired uh sheriff.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

That would be a fun job.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Yes. But they hired a private detective because they really wanted to know what happened to their loved one. And the police didn't have much to go on other than they were all men, all from local gay bars, and all the disappearances happen in the warmer months of the years. So it like hibernates during the wintertime.

SPEAKER_05 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Like too cold to be, you know.

SPEAKER_05 16:37

Then comes out. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

It does get pretty wicked nasty there in the wintertime. So I can imagine you'd probably not want to do any of that stuff.

SPEAKER_05 16:46

Well, plus and you know, if there's snow and stuff like that, you're gonna leave track marks. You're gonna leave more evidence.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

You'll leave a little more evidence. And if you're trying to like if you wanted to bury a body, it's a little harder to do it when it the the the the ground freezes four feet down.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yes. Well, and like the leafy trees are all bare, so you're not as hidden.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

You know? More chance of being caught, probably. Exactly. So in the mid-1990s, there was a regular at one of the bars, and his name was Tony Harris. And Tony noticed a man that was he was staring at the Missy Persons poster that was hung up there in the bar. And Tony didn't recognize this man as a regular, like he'd never seen him. So Tony gets up, he goes over to the man, and he asked him if he knew the missing man on the flyer. The man replied, No, I don't. But the man said his name was Brian Smart, which we now know was Herb Baumeister. But he gave the name Brian. So for now we're gonna call him Brian. Okay. So Tony and Brian started a conversation, and eventually Brian asked Tony if he would like to go back to his boss's house because it was hot outside, and his boss had an indoor pool. Tony said yes, which is crazy, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Different time though, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Well, I mean, here's the thing everybody knew that these men were going missing from gay bars in the downtown Indianapolis area.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Knowing that, and then approaching a man staring at one of the missing persons' flyers, why would you go, yeah? I mean, to me, I think like a red flag would be wavy, like don't.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

And the the his initials are BS. He's full of BS. You know he's lying.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

You know he's a liar. Brian asked Tony, hey, my boss has got an indoor pool in the basement, come back, it's hot, we'll go swimming, right? And Tony says, Yeah. And Brian actually suggested that they take different cars. But Tony insisted that they actually would take the same car because Tony wanted his car left at the bar so that if by chance he didn't return, someone would see his car was still there at the bar and call the police to look for him.

SPEAKER_05 19:23

Ah but my thing is why put yourself in that position?

SPEAKER_00 19:27

But here's the thing if you're if you're worried about something happening to you, why would you even say yes?

SPEAKER_05 19:32

That's what I'm saying. Right. Like why do that?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Why? Yeah. It seems crazy to me. Crazy. Maybe Tony's desperate. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Maybe Brian was just a good looking guy, and it's like, hey, gotta go home with that one.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Have you seen a picture of?

SPEAKER_02 19:49

No, I have not seen a picture of him.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Okay. Well, maybe to some. Right?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

That's just the way of saying you ugly.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

That's not what I said. I'm just saying everybody has different taste.

SPEAKER_05 20:09

There's always a person for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Okay, so moving on. Tony recalls that Brian really didn't say much on their drive. And as soon as they were in a much more country farm setting, where the road was just like two lanes, right? So you go from like downtown Indianapolis, and the roads, you know, go from, you know, many lanes down to two. You get out of the city, there's not really much out there. There's a lot of farmland, a lot of hoarse property, right? So the driveway was really long and winding, and it was very dark out. And finally they reached what Tony describes as a very large house. He said it was like a mansion. And the pool was located in the basement. Brian told Tony that he could actually go across from the pool, and there's a little changing room there. So you can go over there and change, he says, right? So Tony does so. And when he came out of the room, Brian was already in the pool. So Tony Joan joined Brian in the pool. And when Brian asked him if he would like to see a if he would like to see a neat trick. So he's like, hey, Tony, you want to see a neat trick? That's never a good thing. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Never a good thing. So he said, Yeah, you know, what's the trick? And Brian said, then went on to say that if you squeeze someone's neck and cut off the flow of blood to the brain, that it can cause the best orgasm. I mean, do you not hear like alarm bells going off? Like from just the minute he said, Hey, come to my boss's house and swim the pool.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

If they're not like if there's not like a big Big siren going and red lights flashing at this point in time.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

So Tony wasn't sure, but yet he was willing to try.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Oh my goodness. Desperate.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yep. That's what I that's what I say. Brian proceeded to take the length of a pool hose that was nearby and place it around Tony's neck. Brian began to tighten the hose gently at first, right? Like just gradually started to tighten the hose, strangling Tony. Brian pulled the hose tighter, and Tony became lightheaded and started to see like little red dots. And a thought occurred to Tony that, hey, Brian might be trying to kill me.

SPEAKER_05 22:44

Maybe. Really? It just happened to slip your mind just now.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Genius. He seems to be with it a little more now that he has less blood flow to his brain than before. So Tony instinctively, like, okay, I gotta do something, right? So Tony let his legs and his arms kind of float freely in the water, which gave Brian the illusion that he had passed out. Like playing dead. Basically, like, hey, I'm I'm passed out. I'm not a threat.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

You know, you've done your job. So when Brian let loose the hose around Tony's neck, Tony opened his eyes and stood up in the pool and said, Brian, it's you. You're the one that's hurting people. Tony went on to tell Brian he was going to the police, and Brian stated that no one would even believe him. I wonder why. With all these disappearance of happening that are happening from gay bars of gay men, if he took something like that to the police, do you really think they would just dismiss him considering that there was all these gay men showing up dead and missing from these bars?

SPEAKER_05 24:01

Here's the thing. I have been very surprised with even investigations in the last ten years that haven't been done properly where they've the police have been really neglectful.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

And just lack.

SPEAKER_05 24:18

And either one, don't investigate it really at all.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Yeah. Or just they don't think it's anything, so they don't look into it.

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Yeah. And they kind of put evidence to the side

Save A Lot Success And Buying The Farm

SPEAKER_05 24:30

or you quote lose the evidence.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Right.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

You know, I wouldn't say at all that that's happens all the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

But I think it happens a lot more than what we like.

SPEAKER_05 24:42

I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't turn out the way that he was thinking it would turn out. Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Yeah. Yeah. And you also gotta look at the community too, right? And so like there are certain crimes against certain parts of the community that go reported, but like you said, they're under investigated. And so I'm sure he was thinking at this time that he could one, one of two things, gaslight him into not saying anything, because everybody was thinking that, well, it's just a bunch of gay guys, they're not going to investigate anyway.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Or uh two, just try to scare him enough. Either way, he's trying to manipulate him to to not go to the police. Right.

SPEAKER_05 25:33

But for me, I there's no way if I am there with somebody that I think has murdered all these people, there is no way in crud that I'd be like, I'm going to the police. That is like a dang good reason to kill him right there.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Right.

SPEAKER_05 25:46

Right. So why why would Tony do that? He needs to I'm not saying I almost said it. That he had more intelligence when he had that hose around his neck and no oxygen in the brain. He's finally realizing this guy might kill me, and then all of a sudden he gets the hose off around his neck, and all of a sudden he's stupid again, saying, like, hey, I'm gonna go to the police. That's exactly what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

It's not very bright, is it? Like, no.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

Like, it's it's almost like not die 101. Don't tell them you're gonna go to the police.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

You know, Tony, Tony at this point might as well take the hose, go back to Brian and hand it to him and say, Here, do it again. Because that's what he's doing.

SPEAKER_05 26:32

Yeah, it's like any ghost hunt, like when you watch on TV, or or not ghost hunt, but like ghost story or haunting or whatever. Yeah. Or even like a true crime show. They hear some sounds in the basement. Don't go in the basement without a weapon or without anything. Like, don't go do that. Yeah. You get out of the house.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

That's what you do. You don't go investigate, you get out of the house.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

It's horror movie bad.

SPEAKER_05 26:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

It's like, where should we hide? I don't know, maybe behind all the uh axes. We should hide behind the axes.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Let's go in the shed where all the machetes are.

SPEAKER_05 27:07

That seems like a great plan.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah. Not the running car that's waiting for us to run away. No, no.

SPEAKER_05 27:12

Even though the keys are right there. Let's not do that.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Here, let's hide behind these pile of axes. Sharpened axes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

What could go wrong?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

So at this point, you know, Tony's like, okay, I have to get out of here alive. So what he decided to do was try to play like he wanted to still stay and party with Brian. So they drank at the fully loaded wet bar. And eventually Brian passed out on a couch that was kind of in another room that was, you know, down the basement, because there's multiple rooms down there. Apparently, Tony stayed the night there because in the morning, Brian actually drove Tony back. Yeah, he's so smart. So in the morning, Brian actually drove Tony back to the bar that was downtown to his car and told Tony he had a good time and that he'd like to see him again. Did did Brian Like nothing had happened?

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Did he get to the point where he like black out drunk and just forgot all of the stuff that he tried to do that night?

SPEAKER_05 28:16

Maybe. Maybe. There's gotta be some sort of psychological reason that he's telling him all these things. Maybe it's doing it so that he will not have a desire to kill him, but maybe have the desire to just like hang out with him or be with him more instead of like, oh, maybe this one's actually a fun one. Let's keep him around.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Right. And that's a possibility. But here's the thing: this is coming from Tony, okay. And his story does change in later interviews. It does change, it does look bad. Um, I think that there are po parts of Tony's story that are true and accurate. And there are other parts that are just make you scratch your head and shake your head and go, come on.

SPEAKER_05 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Really.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Let's just say for for argument's sake that what Tony's saying right at this part was true. Okay. Herb was already diagnosed with potential multipersonality disorder. So what if one personality is the killer? Right. And that's who was trying to strangle him in the pool, and the other personality when he woke up was entirely different. So he's thinking, we had a good time. We played in the pool, had some drinks, it was fun.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

And had no idea what actually transpired.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

You know, and that's that is a possibility.

SPEAKER_05 29:45

And it could be that he wasn't totally convinced that he was the one that killed them.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Maybe.

SPEAKER_05 29:55

I wonder if part of him was on the fence, like, well, maybe this wasn't him. Because I mean, I've been in scenarios where I've had to second guess.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Where you think one minute it is, and the next minute you're questioning whether it is.

SPEAKER_05 30:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah. No, I get that.

SPEAKER_05 30:10

For the most part, you go off your first instinct, you know, and you're generally right.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Trust your gut.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

But sometimes our head overrules our gut.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Mm-hmm. So, anyways, so after Brian drops Tony off and says, I had a good time and I'd love to see you again, Tony got in his car and went to police and told them everything. But Tony couldn't really give a very accurate description of the killer's home because it was really dark. It's a lot of like horse property, so a lot of farmland and fields and trees and just this little road, you know. And I think if you're not looking for the turn off into the Fox Hollow farm driveway, it would be very easy to miss, especially at night.

SPEAKER_05 31:00

But I also wonder though, yeah, it's dark, but you can generally see how big a house is.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

But if you remember this house, you turn off this little two-lane road. Okay, you turn off, and then there's a little back ways back, there's the sign that says a wood sign that says Fox Hollow Farm, but it sounds like it's kind of hidden. And then it's kind of a windy long driveway, and like there's trees, and there's like some stables, right, on one side, so it's like an outbuilding. Um, and then you keep going, and then the house comes into view. I know, but the guy still went there at night, at night, and he's all familiar with the area.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

I know, but still, so think about it. You go there, you see that there is a huge, ginormous house in the middle of the woods. There can't be that many of them, is what I'm saying. So when you go to the cops, I mean a house that big.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:56

And you go to the cops and say, hey, there's a house in the middle of the woods down a really long path that you know, and it has it has a pool, it has this, you know, whatever. I'm sure you could describe it enough. Somebody's got to recognize that house. Because most people know when you live in an area where the big houses are.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Typically, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

Even if it's down a long road.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yes. We hope the police would.

SPEAKER_05 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, they didn't.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Well, how do you know?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Well, here we go. So the police, because it was dark and because Tony was unfamiliar with area that Brian had taken him to, the police just told Tony to next time get a plate number, should this person ever come back into the bar? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 32:46

Okay, that's a good bet.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

That's fair, right? Tony said that he only he'd said that he only visited Fox Hollow Farm the one time, but in later interviews, he would alter this and actually say he had a romantic relationship with Herb whenever the opportunity would present itself. See, this is where Tony's credibility for me goes downhill. Yeah. Like, why would you alter your story and say, I only went there the once, and and then in other interviews say the opposite.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

I guess he really liked the pool.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Yeah, some no, okay. Anyways. So Tony actually dresses, you know, his altered statement and stuff. Um he actually dresses that his story has changed, and he realizes that it casts doubts on him as a witness, which okay, yeah, it's gonna. So he says after that first night at the farm, he was very certain that this was the man responsible for killing his friends from the gay community. So he still feels very strongly that this is the killer. I don't know. So okay, let's just keep going here for a sec. So he says his main concern was to stop the murders,

Disappearances From Indianapolis Gay Bars

SPEAKER_00 34:15

but he was in a sticky spot because he had caught feelings for the man he knew as Brian. Like it's a cold. What? And he makes it sound like a cold. I caught feelings.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

Okay, so it's like maybe he goes for the type that's like the scary bad boy type.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Well, yeah, but her bow master was not the scary bad boy type.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Well, it's maybe him he was.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

But he was a murderer, so like what I'm saying though is that when Herb worked for that newspaper, yeah, what his co-workers recalled about him was how friendly he was, and he was always very nicely dressed. So he was a very easy going, friendly, nicely dressed, put together, not tattooed up, creepy, bad boy, vi nothing like that. He was never looked at or described by any of his peers, co-workers, anybody like that. Neighbors, nothing.

SPEAKER_05 35:19

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I just can't I it it goes along the lines of those individuals who um end up having romantic relationships with convicted serial killers and convicted murderers in in jail, in prison. So it's kind of along that same psychological line. But the part that's just hard to wrap my brain around, it's like, yep, I am positive this dude killed all my friends, but I love him, and I'm gonna keep hanging out with him.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

It's like whenever the opportunity presents itself, I'm gonna go and be with him.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

It's like because you're not gonna be next, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Or there isn't a possibility that he'll get tired of you and just is there a thrill of the It's gotta be our I don't know. Will he do it this time or not?

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yeah, what is the psychology wrapped around this one? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

So that private investigator that that one family hired to find their loved one, he was immersed and he started to notice a disturbing pattern. He interviewed Tony to try and get as much information as he possibly could out of him. And this investigator drove all around Hamilton County and looked where he thought the location Tony described could possibly be. But because the area has so many horse properties that all looked alike, he really couldn't locate it. Like it was just impossible. But he even went as far as to obtain aerial photos trying to find this property, but he couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

Dang.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I mean, you give him credit, he's trying.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

He's trying, but I I mean I kind of get it though, because if you're like, it's a really big house on horse property. Okay, and then you look and you're like, well, there's 30 of them. Which one? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Because they all look pretty much the same.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yep. So now we're gonna jump to spring of 1995. So Tony, he'd begin to think that he would never see Brian again. And because you know, he went through the winter, the colder months, right? Had his little uh And Brian didn't come around at all. Fall and winter. So spring, Brian actually made an appearance at the bar again. And Tony was, you know, understandably uneasy because Brian was watching Tony. So Tony couldn't actually just get up and go out and get his plate number. So he actually asked a friend to go and write it down, right? So Tony then, when he got it, later he gave it to the missing person missing persons detective that was actually assigned to this case. And once the plate number was ran through the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, the car came back as belonging to Herbert Baumeister, and whose street address was listed as none other than Fox Hollow Farm. Boom.

unknown 38:32

Get it.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

And this was the lead that they had actually been waiting for because they really didn't have a whole lot to go on, if you think about it.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yeah, they really didn't. Big house, horse property.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

And you don't have the forensics that we have today.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Nope. No. I mean, even though, like, in the in I mean, we're talking about the mid-90s, right? Like forensics was a lot better than it was in the 70s, 60s, and 70s. But still, it's not like the ancestral DNA stuff we have today, where it's like we can get you pretty quick if we got a a tiny little microscopic drop of your blood, we can figure out who you are.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Yeah. It's come a long way. Yeah. From what it used to be. So a detective for the missing person bureau actually, she headed over to one of Herb's stores. Remember the Save a Lot stores?

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

They had two of them. And Herb ran one and his wife the other. And his wife ran the one on the north side of the city. But she went over there to question him. She be she actually began by introducing herself and telling him who she was. And then she proceeded to ask him if he ever went to the gay bars in Indianapolis, which he absolutely denied. So then she told him that there were actually multiple eyewitnesses that put him at the gay bars, and that's how they got his plate number, too. And so Herb was visibly shaken. And he admitted that he did visit the bars on occasion, but that his family was completely unaware that he did that. So she then informed Herb that she was investigating the disappearances of some young men that were lasting at those bars. And then she went on to tell Herb that she thinks that she does think that he is either involved or knows who is. So she then gives him the question of can I search your property? And he flat out denied her, and he denied any involvement in any of the disappearances, and then he proceeded to tell the detective that if she has any further questions, then she would need to speak to his lawyer. So and he gave her the information for his lawyer, and so the detective contacted his lawyer who said, We don't represent Mr. Baumeister. So then she again goes to the store, talks to Herb, and says, you know, what the heck? And he's like, take it up with my lawyer. So then she calls their office and they are like, We don't represent Mr. Baumeister. So then she goes back to Herb and again, what the heck? You know? Um, and he's like, contact my lawyer. So then again, she goes down to the law office, and by that third time, Herb had gotten a retainer payment put together and had hired the lawyer, the law firm, to so now they're representing him. Yeah. And she says, Can I search? I need to search the property. And the lawyer says, No. You cannot search the property. So there was that.

SPEAKER_05 42:06

There's always suspicion when they say no.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:09

It's like instant red flag.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

And then they go and hire a lawyer.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

So it's like, yeah, it's like, I'm all nice and can congeal with you. I'll have all this conversation. But you asked me the wrong question, I'm going to lawyer up right away. And it's like, yeah, that's like a flag that says, I'm guilty.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yep. So, anyways, the detective was like, okay. She's like, I gotta go at this from a different angle. So she got a police helicopter that was fitted with an infrared camera. And they flew over Fox Hollow Farm. And they were what they were looking for were any indications of the ground being disturbed or with the infrared camera, any heat signatures. Because as a body decomposes, it gives off gases, which gives off heat. Okay, so this is what they're looking for. But unfortunately, uh they didn't find anything while flying over. And now they need to find another way.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

And it can be hard too. Like I I worked with the infrared cameras and stuff. And when you go in, when you would try to look through dense foli uh foli uh foliage.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Foliage. Like how trees.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah, trees, right? Trees and trees and bushes and stuff. Woods. Right. Um getting a solid heat signature was really hard because it was being blocked by the the leaves. And so you would, it was really hard to see anything actually on the ground. You could pretty much hide a person just standing out there from the from the sky.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

So her wife, you know, wanted to know what was going on. And so the excuse he told her was that he had a they had a former employee who was harassing and making false claims against him, which his wife believed because, you know, when you have your own business and you have employees, sometimes that can happen, right? Disgruntled employee or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

And she has no reason to suspect her husband is doing anything wrong at this point.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

At this point, yeah, because he was a really good dad to their kids. Like he doted on his kids. He bought them the best of everything, loved his children, you know. Um, but he he told his wife, that's why the police came in and questioned me. And that's why I had to get a lawyer, right? So still in 1995. So this is in the winter, uh, Herb and his wife's son was actually playing out in the woods that was just behind the house. So about 50 yards from the back patio, or 50 feet, sorry, 50 feet

Tony Harris Survives The Pool

SPEAKER_00 44:40

from the back patio. So not far at all. And he was playing back there and he found a human skull. And it was amongst like the undergrowth and stuff. Um, so the boy, being a boy, he actually put the skull at the end of a long stick and proceeded to scare his sisters with it, chasing them around. And so, of course, the girls went to their mom and told mom, and she goes over to her son, and she's like, Where did you find this skull? She's like, You take me there right now. And he's like, I told he goes, I told her I found it laying in the woods. And he took her over there to show her exactly where. And when they actually got to the spot where the skull was found, there were also other human-looking bones, like fragments, right? Um his wife later said that it looked as if someone had just laid down and died there, basically. Um, it was just a bunch of little pieces of bone. So she was really anxious at this point to confront her husband about the skull and the bones that were out in the woods. So when her husband comes home, no sooner does he walk in the door and his wife without hesitation says, What the hell is this? Like just and shows him. And Herb was really quick to just dismiss it, and he claimed that it was actually an anatomic, an anatomical skeleton from his m father's medical practice. Just randomly placed out in the woods. Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Because that happens.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

But here's the thing. Herb actually claimed that it had actually been up in the garage in a box, and he wasn't really sure how it ended up in the woods out back, but he said he would be more than happy to get rid of it. So about a week later. I'm sure he would. I'm sure he would, because uh-oh, this could be a problem. But a week later, his wife actually went back out there and the skeleton and everything was gone. So because her husband, she knew her husband collected everything imaginable. He she says he was a pack rat through and through. So she could kind of see that you know, he would have this. Right? So she just okay. But I don't think it ever sat quite right with her, though. Yeah, that would be a tough one for me. That'd be really hard to like Yeah, I think she kind of just pushed it to the back, but I don't think she was ever really satisfied with his explanation of it. Which who would be? I wouldn't personally. So she didn't really at the time find his story too hard to believe because he was such a pack rat. So, anyways, now let's go back to this female detective, right? So she can't get permission from her or his lawyers to even get anywhere on the property to search it. So she's like, you know what? I'm gonna go to his wife. After all, her name was actually on the deed, too. So she could give permission lawful permission to search the property. So she drove to the store that his wife worked, and explained her why she was there and why she wanted the permission to, you know, come on the property and search it. And of course, his wife was upset and said that she's been married to Herb for 25 years and that he has never like hurt her, hurt the kids. He would never hurt anybody. You know, you're just making problems where there are no problems. So let's see.

SPEAKER_05 48:41

How long ago, like do you know the time frame from when she found the bones to when it doesn't say the detective came?

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Mm-mm. Because I think it's all within the same year, 1995.

SPEAKER_05 48:53

I would be starting to question putting all these things together.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah. It doesn't say when the detective came and talked to her, but I I imagine it was not long after she found the, you know, the skull and the bones and stuff. I think it was that same winter. Because their son found it in winter of 1995. She confronted him that night. A week later, when she went back, he had removed it. And then it doesn't say how long after that that the detective came to talk to her.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

So we within probably six months or less.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

I would say less, quite a bit less. Because remember, this detective's trying to find a way to get to the property. Right. And she went aerial, couldn't find any evidence, any anything. So now she's got to hit it from a different angle. Because she tried Herb, she tried his lawyer, now she's going to try the wife. So what Herb's wife ended up telling the detective was get some proof, and then I will be more than happy to give you a guided tour. So she was very stern with the detective. So it was obvious that, you know, his wife wasn't actually going to cooperate until a valid search warrant was actually given. Right? But they gotta find, they have to have a good enough reason to obtain one.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

Right. You just can't just get a search warrant, you have to have a probable cause.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Exactly. So now she's kind of at another dead end. So, anyways, um so Herb just glazed over the whole incident when his wife had informed him that night over dinner. Um, she told her about her interaction, interaction with the detective, and he just he glazed over it. Like it was no big thing, right? It was just more BS from disgruntled employee, former employee. But things weren't actually as good as they once were at the farm. Okay, so things are kind of unraveling. They'd actually fallen behind on their bill payments, their mortgage, their electricity bill, right? And their two stores, they weren't faring so well anymore. I wonder if Word was going around. Hard to say. So Mr. and Mrs. Baumeister's relationship actually started to give way under this stress, right? And there you gotta admit, she has in the back of her head with the skull and some claims, now her wheels are starting to turn a little bit more here. So she actually filed for divorce from her shortly after that. And he ended up moving into the on-site apartment, and it was actually built onto the side of the main home. So you could actually access the apartment through the house itself, or um, you could lock off that entry point, and there was an outside entrance, like a long staircase going up the side of the house to the door.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

It's like a mother-in-law suite.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Yeah. A lot of stairs though.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

The mother-in-law you don't like suite.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Yeah. So, Mrs. Balmeister, she was thinking of the school that her son had found out back in the woods, and there was something that just didn't feel right about her husband's story. She actually ended up calling her lawyer, and she gave all the information that she had about Herb and stated that she is now ready to start cooperating with the police. So a few days later, Herb was at the lake and he'd taken their son, right? Went up to the lake for a few days. And Mrs. Baumeister took that opportunity to let the police come and search the property. So she related to the police about her son finding the skull, and the police, you know, obviously they're gonna say, take me to the exact spot. That's where they're gonna start, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

So they're kind of searching around, and at first they didn't really see a whole lot of anything, right? And eventually they started to find bones and then teeth that were scattered all in the area. So they were kind of like in the weeds and stuff, right? And some underbrush. So then more bones started to turn up. They were all different sizes, all different shapes. And unsure they weren't really sure though if the bones were human or animal. So they made a call to a forensic anthropologist. They got him out there, he came and looked, he took one look at the various teeth, the bones, and he said without a doubt they were human, and also were recently put there. So now Foxhall Farm was now a full-blown crime scene. So now they're calling out all the big guns. So they had to begin the task of like linking the bones to Herb. They had to link him, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Yep. Just because you find bones doesn't mean it's his.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Exactly. Didn't mean that he put them there, didn't mean that he did anything or had anything to do with it. They knew he could walk free if they actually acted too fast, so they had to really be careful about what they were doing. So what they did was they set up like a search grid on the land, and it was actually behind the house, and they put with special focus where the skull was actually found, which would make sense, right? Yep. You find a skull, you find some teeth, like let's start here.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

You expect to find the rest of the body?

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yep. So they found mostly fragments of bone and some more teeth. Um the bones actually looked if they had been like burned. Um, and they also noticed that the victims had not been uh buried, but rather just placed there to decompose. And then once they had decomposed, they were then soaked in gasoline and then set ablaze to further break them down and try to hide smaller pieces. That seems like a lot more work, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 54:58

How? You have kids, young kids.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

You're on 18 acres though.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Yes, but you're putting bodies on the top of the ground, just laying.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Here's how

A License Plate Breaks The Case

SPEAKER_00 55:10

and not far from the home. Right. But I'm gonna tell you why that is.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Okay. Okay, so hold on. Okay. So not only were they had been covered in gasoline set ablaze to further hide them, but with that and the fact that animals had dragged pieces all around the wooded area. So they ended up cataloging logging like thousands of fragments of bones. So on the last day, they were kind of gathering up everything, wrapping it up, right? And they were getting ready to leave. And a couple teenagers who actually worked on the farm next door, they actually came up and they asked the cops what they were looking for because they noticed them out there all week and they're like, What's going on? Right. So curiosity. And the one of the officers told them, Well, this is a crime scene and we're looking for human remains. And the teenagers kind of looked at each other and they said, like, bones and stuff. And the police said yes. And the teens proceeded to then tell the police officer there were a ton of bones in a nearby creek. And the kids had just assumed that they were animal bones because there wasn't like skulls, there was like other pieces, right? Probably femurs and things like that. So they assumed all and a lot of like the teenagers that like volunteered and worked on some of these farms, they all knew there were a bunch of bones down there, but they just figured somebody was dumping animal bones or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Because I mean, if you look at vertebrae, they can look a lot of like thing in the animal and human.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

So the police said, well, you know, normally we could like me we'd probably dismiss this, but given why we're here and it's close to where we're looking, you know, take us there. So he actually gathered up a team and they went to the west side of the property where there was a creek. Um, when they got there, they were just astounded by all the bones that they found in the bed of this creek. So all of them appeared to be human. There were ribs, femurs, spinal columns, just about every human bone you could possibly think of was in that creek. And he kind of wondered just how many victims were actually scattered all around. Like, it had to be a few, right? So the bones actually extended all the way up the ravine. And up that ravine there was this large, like, mulch pile nearby, like a compost pile of like leaves, yard debris, right? Organic material. Um, and what they believed was that the killer was actually placing his victims in that pile of mulch, and then he'd cover them over and let them kind of decompose, and animals would show up and take pieces and drag them down to the crick, right? And by the looks of us, looks of it, he said this had been going on for years. So then now, instead of wrapping up, they had to go to this area now and start a grid, and and it took them another three weeks in that crick, excavating all the bones. Three weeks. That's a lot they found a staggering 5,500 bones and fragments that were recovered from the Fox Hollow farm from the wooded area and then the crick. Okay, how many bones does the human have?

SPEAKER_02 58:45

253. Divided by 5,500. But remember, there were fragments too.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

So bones, bones and fragments put together, right? So 5,500. So their findings were that there were at least 11 victims, but that the odds were very good that there were more. Oh, there's always more. There's always more. So now we get to into DNA. Okay, so this is back in 1996 now. Okay, so now we're in DNA. And this process was obviously very expensive, and it cost about $1,200 per sample. And it was actually required back then to be paid personally rather than by authorities. So basically, what that means is that the family member who maybe suspected that one of their loved ones was there amongst the bones. Yep. They had to pay that amount for them to test their DNA against any of the bones recovered at Fox Hollow.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Oh, that's like hurting the victim victim family twice.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Right. But it was DNA was not where it is now. It was so much more expensive. But the good thing is, is through some negotiating stuff, like the anthropologist and his team were able to get the cost down to $650 per test. Uh, but this was still out of the realm of a lot of people's capability to pull $650 and go here. Sure. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Yeah, that's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Yeah, and that's hard. Not being able to afford it and then saying, well, how am I ever gonna know? So eight individuals were actually identified, although it is estimated that there were actually between 17 to 20 victims total. So most of Herb's victims actually had little connection to Indianapolis, where the transients, uh, they were transients, which is exactly why he'd picked them, because the chances were very low that anybody would come looking for them or report them missing, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

Yeah, because they're already they're already kind of missing, but they were already used to being missing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

So people wouldn't look for them and yeah, they wouldn't come looking for them or report them missing because they're transients. Right. They're not really connected to any Yeah, they're not part of the community.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

If they're missing in Texas, they're not gonna know that they're in the Indianapolis.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

Right. So now all this is unraveling, right? Full-fledged crime scene. Yeah, you know, DNA testing going on. So you might be wondering what happened to good ol' Herb, right? Well, it actually seems that the spouse of one of the investigating officers that was there, she is believed to have leaked information to the media about the findings at Fox Hollow. So now you see Herb was still up at the lake, up at that condo, and he just happened to see it on the local news. Now he knew without a doubt the jig was up. He's actually back home. Yep. There's no going back.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

And he's got his kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

Yep. Well, no, see, here's the thing though. Here's here's part of it though. When they discovered teeth and bone fragments, Mrs. Baumeister became very afraid, right? Yeah. When they were identified and confirmed to be human. No, she sent the police officer up to the condo up at the lake to get her son. So when the officer went up there, he didn't tell her anything about them. He didn't even let on that anything was going on at the farm. He just said, you know, since you and your wife are going through this nasty divorce, she's worried about she wants her son home because this of this divorce. That's a good way to go at that. Yeah. He didn't let on that anybody was at the farm, that they even went, nothing. Right? But Herb knew, I think in the back of his mind, something was up. Yeah. He just didn't know how much of it had come out. So, anyways, he just happened to see it on the local news and he knew now that, hey, I can't go back. So he actually packed and he fled. He actually got in his car and started drive, and he drove through like Detroit and he crossed over into Canada, and he would just, you know, stop long enough to make like a quick call to his brother. And he asked his brother, hey, you know, can you wire me some money? And then he drove for a few more hours. And then later, under bridge

The Skull Discovery And A Cracking Marriage

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

overpass, he parked down there and he slept in his car. Right? So he's under this overpass and he's sleeping down there. And he was woken up by a mounted Canadian officer um knocking on the window saying, You have to move along because it wasn't safe to be under here. So the officer noticed in the back seat that there was a very large number of video tapes in Herb's car, but he didn't really think it was suspicious enough to question him or anything. I mean, it makes you wonder what was on those tapes, right? Right. Like if he's fleeing and he packed and fled, why'd he take all these VHS tapes?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:04

Well, that tells me one thing of what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Right? Evidence. Evidence, something incriminating. Maybe he recorded him strangling these people, these men.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:15

Or just being with them, because I mean anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

We'll never know. They're gone. We don't know what he did with them. They were never recovered. So anyways, so Offer said, officer said, move along, you know. And her was like, okay. But yeah, what was on those tapes, really? But he actually drove up to a place called um, I think it was Pineart Park. And it's basically on the shores of Lake Huron. Okay. And he walked a little bit and he kind of found this like really scenic area by the picnic and close to the water's edge. He kind of sat down and he started to write out a suicide letter. And in this letter, Herb, he first apologized for the financial ruin he was leaving his family. And he also apologized for leaving what would soon be an ugly mess in such a beautiful place. So he ended his letter by saying that, hey, I'm gonna eat a peanut butter sandwich and I'm gonna go to sleep. And he never in his letter mentioned anything about the murders or all the bones that were found on his property. And he ended the letter by signing it Herb Baumeister. And then he set the letter down. He pulled out his gun, he placed the barrel against his forehead, and he pulled the trigger. And that's where he was found. He did also mention in his suicide letter, though, that um don't worry, I only put One bullet in the gun, so that if a kid happens by, they can't hurt themselves with the gun. So he didn't want it's it's weird how his mind works because he doesn't want to cause any harm to a kid that could find the gun and hurt themselves, right? Right. So he makes sure to just use, you know, put one bullet, but yet he murdered all these men. But remember, they said he was a great father. He doted on his kids, they had the best of everything, went to private school, loved his kids. So he had a definitely a soft spot for children. But yeah. And that's where they found him. His body was discovered. Uh, you know, um people from Indianapolis, uh, Indiana's police department came up, collected the gun, collected his body, collected the car.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

Minus the videotapes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Yeah, the videotapes were never mentioned. Other than that one officer that woke him up under that bridge overpass had said he saw a very large amount of VHS tapes in the backseat of his car. But it wasn't a reason to have been anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

He could have burned them, he could have threw them in a trash can.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

Somewhere, just dumped them somewhere. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:25

Imagine someone going out looking through the woods and just finds a duffel bag full of videotapes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Could you imagine? I couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

Well, they're probably degraded by now.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

30 years in the uh elements would probably destroy them, but or he burnt them or just put them in a dumpster somewhere along his you know, fleeing. But now let's get to the hauntings.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

That's why we're here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

That's why we're here. So now the people that moved in, so the house actually, after all this, right? I mean, they're still finding bones there today.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

They're still turning.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

They're still turning, like after a storm or whatever, an animal kicks one up and drags it. But uh, so Rob and Vicky Graves, okay, they bought the house. So when they went to look at the house, they didn't know anything of the history of Fox Hollow Farm at the time. Don't you have to have that disclosed? Well, and they did. They did, but see, they went and looked at the house. Uh, when they walked in the house, it smelt like urine. There were raccoons, a family of raccoons living up in the attic. The house had been vacant for five years at this point. So there was, and nobody had really upkept it. So, like the the uh land was like four feet high with weeds and grass, and you know, so it was a lot of work that needed to be done. Uh, some wiring, some plumbing. Like there's miles of plumbing in this place. It's like 9,000 square feet, so it's huge. So they and I think at the time they looked at it was going for 2.85 million, was actually, which is actually really reduced because of its history, right? And they found out about its history because the real estate person had to tell them. And so they went home and him and his wife discussed it and asked themselves if they could live in a place with uh such a history, right? And they decided yes. They wanted to be out of the city, away from it all, right? So the guy who owned the place didn't actually ever live there. Uh, it's reported that he ended up with the house through a real estate deal gone bad, and he's trying to unload it. And they offered him, you know, a lower price than 2.85, and he quickly came back with a no. So then they offered another price. I don't know what that price was, and the owner said no. So then months go by. So this I think took, I think it was like a year between a year and two years. And so they had all but given up on it, right? They're just like, it wasn't meant to be. So then eventually, months and months go by, and the guy who owns the house calls them directly and says, okay, I'll sell it to you. So they end up purchasing the house, and I don't have the price. Doesn't really matter. They move in, they start working on it, of course, to bring it back to what it was. Uh, Rob actually went to the woman who had owned the house. Her and her husband had originally built it. Okay, and this was like back in 1971 or something like that. I think it was in the 1970s, I believe. And she said they spared, they spared no expense. She wanted this dream home. Her husband said, let's do it. They hired the best builders, everything. And back then, the the cost that they put into this house was a million dollars. And this was in the 1970s. So imagine what that is in today's money. I can't even imagine. What would that be? What do you think? Rough estimate. Six, five, six million.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:12

Somewhere in that range.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Yeah, they spared no expense.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

Which that's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Yeah. It is. Um, anyways, so Rob and Vicky move in, right? And they're working on the house. They have two sons, and she's down one day in the basement vacuuming around the swimming pool. Because her kids, her boys, because there's a slider that goes outside from the pool in the basement to the outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

They drug mud in and it dried. And so she's in there vacuuming, right? So she's vacuuming, and she's got the vacuum plugged into like an extension cord because the vacuum cord itself wasn't long enough. And so she got it plugged into a long extension cord, which is plugged into the wall, and she's vacuuming, and the vacuum goes off. And she's like,

The Search Grid And Thousands Of Bones

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

What the heck? So she turns around, notice that the plug is out and on the floor below the outlet. She just figures I pulled it out. But remember, she's got it plugged into this long extension cord. It wasn't pulled tight or anything at all. In fact, she had plenty of cord left. She figures whatever. She goes, plugs it back in, goes back to vacuuming, it happens again. But this time instead of it just being below the outlet, it's now like two feet away from the outlet. Like it was thrown. Like it was thrown, like it was forcefully pulled out, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

So she's like, She's like, maybe I'm missing something, right? She doesn't really think much of it. So she plugs it in, goes back to vacuuming. But then as she turns around and looks at it, she sees it the third time being yanked out of the wall. Like forcefully yanked out. This thing just didn't slide out and fall straight down. So like it was someone who was mad and was like yanking it out of the wall. So that was like her first experience step there in the pool area. And she doesn't like the pool area. I can see why. It gives her a vibe, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:15

I remember I remember seeing we watched Ghost Adventures.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:19

Yeah, they went there.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

I didn't like the pool area, just seeing it on the video. Place looks terrible. Then you know what happened in there. It's like, no.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:29

Yeah, a lot of the activity seems to happen in the pump house. It's right by the pool. It's a little pump room. So there's a lot of activity. There's something that's dark that's living in there. So yeah, ghost adventures went there. Um, you can go and watch that episode. Um, even in this book I read, they said that yeah, Zach seems to overdramatize. Dramatize a lot. And they did hit on some things correctly, of course, but yeah, he's like, Yeah, and you know, up in the little apartment where Herb moved into when his wife filed for divorce. That's where a law of activity is. So Rob and his wife, Vicky, Rob had a coworker and he's looking for a little apartment. And Rob's like, hey, we have a little mother-in-law apartment, mother-in-law apartment on the side of the house. It has its own outside entrance. Why don't you come take a look at it? And this guy's name is Joe, young man, single. And so he comes in, he looks at it, he's like, Yeah, cool. He ended up living there for about two and a half years, Joe did. But because he was young and single, he seemed to be the target of energy that was there. Okay, so the first night that Joe moved in and he went to sleep, and he has a dog, but he went to sleep, he had the most vivid nightmare. And in his nightmare, he was running for his life. He didn't know what he was running from, but he said it was such a vivid and intense dream that it woke him up and he was still in the fight or flight mode that he actually jumped out of bed and started running.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:13

Oh my.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:15

Whoa. And he ran into like the door frame and fell back and laid on the floor for a minute. And then he's like, he's like looking around, he gets up, and he's still feeling that feeling of run. Yeah, run. You know, you're in danger, run. Right. But you know, of course, he didn't, and he, you know, he looked all around. He's like, I don't, I don't know what's happening here, right? So another incident, like he and he would see things out of the corner of his eyes, you know, see something moving. Yep. Um, his dog would bark and growl at the door where you would come into the apartment from the outside. And at the same time, every night there was this knocking. So they have this heavy, you know, one of those heavy door knockers, iron? Yeah. Right? Like it's heavy. You have to pull that thing up and slam it down. Like it, you can't just push it up and it'll stay there. It's so heavy it's gonna right. Okay, so one night that thing's banging against the door. He's like, Who the heck? Right? He's like, I'll be right there. Because he was doing the dishes. He dries his hands off, walks towards the door. As he's getting closer to the door, it gets louder and more violent, like more frantic, right? He gets there and he opens up the door. And that door knocker is sitting like at 90 degrees. It's not against the door, it's like up like this. That's not possible. No, it's not possible. It's like something's holding it there, and then he's watching it, and it goes wham, and then back up and then drops into its rightful position. Yeah, so there was physic there was something there that was physically holding that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

Right. Because even wind, even a like a strong wind wouldn't depunk holes like that it up. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

No, no. And you know, it happened a lot where there would be knocking at the door and he'd go and answer it, and nobody's there. Well, now remember, this is a long staircase. So if it was really somebody playing a trick on you, you're gonna hear them trunching down those wood stairs.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:18

Or jumping off the edge and landing hardly. That's quite a drop. Yeah, I think it's like 20 feet.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:23

But also, there's the thought that spirits have spirits like that need to be invited in. Yes. So it's like, I'm gonna knock and see if you invite me in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Exactly. But there was also an incident where Rob's wife, Vicky, she'd come home from work. Okay. She gets out of the car, her husband Rob's up on a ladder, he's painting part of the outside house. You know, the upkeep on this place, he's like, is 24-7. It's so big, and it takes both of us working a lot just to maintain it, right? That would be too much. It was a lot, it's a lot. And so he gets down off a ladder and he's showing her, you know, this is what I painted, and they're having a conversation, and he noticed that his wife's eyes go over to the tree line, and she's just staring. She's not even listening to her husband. And he looks over there and she's like, There's a young man in a bright red shirt and blue jeans. And at first she thought, because of the reputation of the farm, they get a lot of looky loose. Oh, probably. And a lot of people, because you can't see the house from the road, right? A lot of people think it's still abandoned. So a lot of people come on the property, and so they've had issues with that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:46

But come in the back way.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:47

So at first, yeah, he was solid, and she said he looked just like a young man that was just like having a casual stroll through the tree line until she looks down about mid-thigh of his legs, and from mid-thigh down, he has no legs. Oh my goodness. And she watches him and he just kind of walks, and then he disappeared right in front of her eyes, he faded away, just gone. Did he make eye contact with her?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:13

No. So she saw him, but he didn't see her.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

It didn't seem like he seen her. So residual? Yeah. Maybe, right? But then Joe, okay, the guy who was renting the little apartment, yeah, after dinner at night, he'd take his dog for a walk up like the long winding driveway. And it wasn't like super dark yet, but it was like dusk. And they're walking back, and the dog stops and looks over at the tree line. And normally the dog's really well trained. He doesn't keep him on a leash because he doesn't need to. But the dogs are sprinting towards the woods, right? And so he's looking and he sees a young man with a red shirt and blue jeans, and his dog's running at the woods. And Joe thought there's just somebody snooping around, right? So he goes running after his dog, and he runs into the woods, and he stops dead in his track because he was like he stopped and noticed that this young man in the red shirt and blue jeans was staring right at him. So there was recognition. Creepy, right? So this tells me that I don't think it's residual, but right. Yeah. And so after that, he saw that and he just turned around and he started booking it out of the out of the woods, and his dog was on his heels, and then he's like, he's like, my dog ran past me.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:41

You know it's creepy if the dogs running faster than you. Going in the other direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:46

That's funny. So he had that experience. He also had an experience in the basement pool. So Rob and Vicky's two sons were swimming in the pool, and then Joe is down there. And remember, Joe's like in his mid-20s, I think, like 26. And he has a friend with him, and they're swimming in the basement pool. And Joe swims to the deep end of the pool, right? And he's at the end of it. So, you know, where the floor is. And he's just kind of sitting there and he feels hands go around his neck. But he's like, they weren't aggressive or threatening. It was almost like sensual. Yeah. And so he whips around and looks. No one's there. So he's like looking around, he's like looking where his friend's at, thinking maybe someone's playing a trick on him, but his friend's like at the other end of the pool. And so are the other two kids. They're down there. So they're like, okay, a little creeped out, right? So he takes a couple strokes and a few strokes, and he's in the middle of the pool. And he's just kind of treading water in the middle of the pool. Then he feels something around his neck again, but this time it's threatening. It's not this gentle caress, it's tight. And he feels things dragging him down. So now a lot of psychics and uh people that have visited the property over the years says that there is actually a portal in the middle of that pool. And that what he is was feeling wasn't actually like a malevolent spirit dragging him down. It's a place where spirits come and go, and they're just grasping at whatever and just ended up pulling

DNA Costs And Unnamed Victims

SPEAKER_00 1:22:30

him down there.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

Like either way, either way, it's creepy. It's creepy.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:36

It's creepy. Yeah. But they've had paranormal teams fly in. Um, there is a book on Barnes and Noble called Fox Hollow Farm that you can um electronic book that you can get. And that's what I got a lot of this information from.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:53

Um, it's really good. Um, but they've had investigation teams come in. Of course, they had ghost adventures come in. So Rob Graves uh and Vicky Graves, like she believes in that stuff. Um he's more of a I take it with a grain of salt type of guy. Um and not many people that come out there really get his attention, Rob's attention, because like I said, he just doesn't put a lot of stock into it. He thinks there's something out there, but right.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:26

It's right, but there's stuff there, but yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:30

Right. But a lot of people that have come out there say that it's not actually Herb Baumeister that's haunting that place, that he does pop in every now and again, up in that apartment, especially. But that's not him. Because of the history of the place and what has taken place there over the years, it's invited something darker in that mimics Baumeister.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:55

See, and I would think it's that dark energy that enticed him to do those things. Yeah. And I don't think any human has those thoughts or feelings without something, a negative entity helping push it. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:16

Yeah. So I I think this very same that it was it's probably that same energy that or spirit or spirits, whatever, that in the home, and whatever is like that malevolent entity. But I bet that whatever is outside in the trees or tree line is probably maybe some of the people that have passed away out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:45

Yes. Uh it's also re uh there's also been a number of uh mediums. And Rob will s tell you that the owner, he'll say, There's only a couple mediums that really got my attention and were very accurate. He goes, and I gave them nothing. He goes, and then they knew things that you can't just look up. But both of those mediums that he was actually impressed by both reported that there are Native American spirits on the land and they reside there because they are thoroughly ticked about having their land stolen from them. Um, and there are other spirits there that are really mild and just kind of do their own thing and they come and go, but they don't like all the prey to people coming through, the investigators. So a lot of investigation teams will go there and they won't get a whole heck of a lot. And in this book that I'm reading, uh, he takes a team, this one guy, and he's the one that wrote the book, uh, he takes a team, uh, not just once but twice, and with different people each time, right? People that he trusts um and has confidence in and kind of have different bring different things to the team, right? Um, and a lot of the times he'll be like, we did the C VP session, we did this, we got absolutely zero. Nothing was happening, blah, blah, blah. But then you have these triggers. So they invite Joe, who lived in that apartment for two and a half years, they invited him over. And they went in the pump house, they all crammed in there, and they got some pretty good responses there. So, not just EVPs, but like touched and feelings and like a growl, like an inhuman growl. But yeah, a lot of people are saying it's not Herb that's there, it's something that is pretending to be him for its own benefit. Right. It's having fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:49

It's it's definitely not uncommon to find teams, various you know, amalgamations of teams going to a place and getting different activity or no activity.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:05

Um because it's all about the energy of the individuals involved.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:10

And so sometimes they just don't like somebody in the group.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:15

And that's true. And you know, um they got some responses because there's an a lot of the energy is down in the pool room. Well, and it's water. And the yeah, yeah, yep. And the pump room that's right by the pool. Right. Okay. They don't really it doesn't really like women down there. So that would be something that you know would be like what Herb he was, you know, into the guys, but right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

Yeah, and I I would imagine that most of the murders took place in that pool.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

Yeah, we have no idea. Well, I mean, given given Tony's story Tony's story Well, now some of it's true because he The one that brought it to the police attention because they they had absolutely nothing. Um, he's the one that said, Hey, there's this guy, you know, and he right, right? I think he's this person. So I think that, yeah, I think for the most part his story is true. But I think I I don't know that I believe Tony because he's been back to the property since all this on a few occasions, and he believes that he's communicating with Herb. Well, it's whatever's imitating him, it's not actually Herb. See, I think he's trying to get attention.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:35

Tony?

unknown 1:28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:36

Yeah. If you read the book, you definitely get the vibe.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:41

But it's also, you know, an author can spin things however they want to. So I've watched documentaries and the same story in one of them. One turns it one way, another one turns it another. Yeah. To give you different perspectives

Baumeister Flees And Dies In Canada

SPEAKER_05 1:28:55

on how it could be, because you don't really know. Yep. But from this author's perspective, it sounds like Tony is the type that wants attention. And so maybe that's why he stories were changing and embellishing.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:10

And so this author, as he writes in this book, he's very, you know, hey, when in doubt, throw it out. He's very um, we're gonna try and recreate it, we're gonna try and debunk it. Um, he's not like every little thing is paranormal, and he's not overly dramatic. If you read how he describes things and how he describes when ghost adventures came there and all the things, you realize this guy's very has a lot of common sense. He's very level level-headed and very grounded. He's not trying to one way or another. Yeah. He's he's very even keeled. He's not he's not trying to convince you of anything, he's letting you think for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:02

Just gonna lay it.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:03

And make your own opinion, have your own opinion. So this is why I really enjoyed this book, is because he wasn't trying to, you have to believe because this is what happened. And I said he's not like that at all.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:16

So I found it very refreshing. That is very refreshing. I like the documentaries that are like that, where they don't, they're just like, here are the facts, this is what happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:24

Yep. And that's what this book is. It's it's just very like he lays it out as it is. Um, and yeah, Tony does come, he doesn't make Tony come off, he just reports exactly what Tony tells him. And so that would tell me.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:39

And he gives his opinion. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:43

But I mean, I get it though, because of all the topics out there, true crime is the most popular topic.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:52

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:52

Well, and this is a bit of both, right? Because it starts with true crime, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:56

And then there's paranormal. And Tony is the one that lived.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:01

So there is true. There is a lot of attention given to it and to people who are the ones that lived from serial killers.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:11

Yeah. Well, and also too, is when sometimes when you first tell a story, you don't give all of the details. Yeah. And then as you go, depending on, you know, your reasons why you're wanting to withhold information. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:30

And and I'm sure like that could also be the case. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:33

Where it's like, okay, I feel more safe, or I feel like now I should divulge more information, then starts to divulge more. And maybe that's why it quote changed was because more information was being divulged. Or it could just be like attention seeking and I'm gonna throw this out there and then I'm gonna throw this out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:55

But who knows? Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:56

Yeah, Tony does, but it's it's all fascinating. And I think that I think the part that fascinates me about Fox Hollow Farms or Farm is that a lot of serial killer places don't exist anymore.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:16

Like uh Ed Gean's gone. They'll yeah, they'll tear it down. Yeah. Um trying to think of the clown.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:27

Gacy.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:27

Gacy. Gacy's house.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:29

John Wayne's John Wayne Gacy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:31

They tore it down. This place still exists.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:35

Yeah. Well, if you guys are interested in the books, it's called The Horrors of Fox Hollow Farm by Richard Estepp. E-S-T-E-P. And you can find it on Barnes and Noble as a like electronic, you know, an ebook. An ebook, or um, you can get it in paperback, but just go to Barnes and Noble. That's what I did. And I just got the ebook.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:02

Yeah. You can go talk to uh Richard at the uh Michigan Paracon, because he's gonna be there this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:08

There you go. Look at that. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:09

So so Richard is actually goes to a lot of these paracons.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:13

He does. And so he he's been to Fox Hollow Farms. So I'm in the book, I'm on the second time he goes back. And he goes with a couple of the same people and a couple different people he brings in because he wants different people, perspective, and experience. And so he he tries to hit it from so many angles. He's very thorough and he's very honest because a lot of the times he's like, Yeah, we did an EVP session and then for this long, and then we went back and we went through it, we got nothing. And you'll hear that a lot in the book. But there are some things that they do get, um, but there's just so much that they do and try, and they go like to the stable, and you know, and the hotspots seem to be the apartment and the basement pool, of course. But um, they bring in mediums, they bring in so much. Like they interview, they like they're very thorough, he's very good. I really liked reading this book because he's just I feel like he's genuine. Yeah, there is no, hey, let's spice this up, let's blow it up. Let's make it something that's not even just a little bit. Like he's very just this is what it is, plain and simple. Like, we got nothing.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:37

See, I even believe that versus everything's a ghost.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:41

Yeah, because he even he even kind of you know makes some smarmy remarks. Ah, the life of a paranormal investigator. Yeah, you know, 90%, nothing. Yeah, it's so true. 10% something. I mean, think about it, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:55

Like we go to these places and spend, I mean, we've spent 18 hours in a place investigating.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:02

And it's like, what'd you get? Three things.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:06

And they're not even like that amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:08

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:09

Well, and see, here's the thing though, he just doesn't go for one night, him and his team. They go multiple nights, which is so cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:16

So jealous. I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:18

I would love to do that. But it's like we've been to places where we've gone multiple times. Uh-huh. And there'll be times we get absolutely nothing. And then other times it is non-stop treasure trove. Like, legit, I will get EVP after EVP after EVP. And even though it might not be the best quality, it's still enough where I'm like, do I even count this one right now? Because I literally am going like 10 seconds before the next one and the next one and the next one. And they're just whispers, and sometimes you can't even understand them. But it's enough where you're like, holy moly, I've hit the hot spot. Yeah. Because you can get absolutely silence for hours and hours and hours, and then all of a sudden it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:02

Yeah, or the opposite. It could start off boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then go dead.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:06

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:07

Like at Macky Mansion.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:09

That was a great example.

New Owners And The First Activity

SPEAKER_05 1:36:10

Did everybody go to sleep? What happened? They all left. And you know what's what's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:17

Yep. Oh, yeah. It just it just came to a halt.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:21

But our friends at Broken Wings went and they got nothing until midnight.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:25

See, isn't that weird? I think, I think I want to say that groups have different energy between the members in the group. Totally. And I think the spirits will interact differently with certain groups, you know. Like maybe they'll interact more, less, whatever. But I just I think it varies depending on the people and the type of spirits that are there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:52

Yeah. And and let's face it, your energy at the time, too. Yes. Because I mean you get to just be totally out of it and just not even present. And just totally disconnected. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:07

Or the weather makes a huge difference too. That too. If you've got a good thunderstorm with rain and everything, it turns it can turn out so amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:18

And and see that and that brings up all of these crazy variables on why investigators get something or nothing. And it's like there is no rhyme or reason to why we get stuff and we don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:39

Yeah. It's variant.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:42

Yeah. It's completely variant.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:44

Yeah. But I highly recommend this book. It's a really good read. It's not a super long book, but the guy who wrote it, um, he does a great job. Like he explains what like EMF is and EVP, and you know, but it's not long and drawn out explanation. It's sure, accurate, and sweet.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:05

Keep you entertained.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:06

It keeps you entertained. It doesn't, you know, take you down this long rabbit hole of electronics. Yeah. Of what you really just don't want at that point.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:16

Everybody cares how an EMF detector actually works.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:21

Like they brought out what it is. Yeah, they brought out SLS camera up in the apartment, and he explains really quickly what that is and what the purpose is, and how, you know, it's not always accurate. Like sometimes it tries to map a door frame, you know, something that's tall and thin, and it can map as a person.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:37

And we've seen that. Remember, we had that poster at uh the prison that we were like, there's he's right there.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:43

And it's like wait a second.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:45

That's a poster.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:46

Yeah. But then we've got them where they've been crouching and then all of a sudden climb up the wall.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:51

That's weird. You know, that's a little creepy. So weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:54

That's a little creepy. Yeah, you get some weird stuff, and everything is everything is different.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:00

But I would say this guy's pretty pretty good. Pretty good. He's reliable. He's like, I think he's pretty accurate. So he's he's very grounded. He's just Yeah. Yeah. I I would be more likely to believe someone like him. But if you read the book, you get a feel for this guy, how he investigates, um, and how he looks at things. And he he's always quick to say, you know, I don't believe it was this, but I I could I could always be wrong. But in my ex you know, experience, and he's been doing this for years and years.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:41

So he's a seasoned he's very seasoned, yeah. So would you go? Would if you were given the opportunity, would you investigate or just spend the night in the apartment?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:56

You know, for me this is a hard one. Um, a lot of lives were taken. Um I think for me the hardest part would uh would be finding out if if like some of these uh men that were murdered are stuck there.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:18

See, but that's why I would want to go to help him cross over.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:22

Yeah, see now this is what this investigator says too, but he says I don't have the ability to do that. And um, but that's that's one thing that weighed heavy on him too.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:33

But what if you could identify him? What if you could get closure for the families who still don't know?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:40

If I could without a doubt do that, 100% yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:44

But I mean you wouldn't know until you tried, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:40:46

But see, that's the thing though, is is you never know what you're going to get into in an investigation. But just because bad things happened there doesn't mean there's bad spirits there. Right. And it doesn't mean that there isn't somebody that needs help, either in just having a conversation, because I mean, we have found time and time and again that even spirits that aren't even from that area will come just because you're there, knowing that you're there, because they need you.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:18

We have experienced that on a handful of occasions. It's almost like you become like this beacon for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:24

The the lighthouse I look at it as the lighthouse in the dark.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:28

Yes. Yeah. So even for me, even if bad things happened there, I would still go. I wouldn't be searching out the bad things. Oh, heck no. That wouldn't

Portals, Mimics, And Why Teams Get Nothing

SPEAKER_05 1:41:40

be my we don't do that anyway. That's not my priority. My priority would be who's good that's there, who's in the area that needs my help, who wants to have that conversation, or who just needs that conversation. Yeah. Because sometimes that's all it is. Sometimes we just go there and we we have a good conversation, and then all of a sudden it makes that area light again.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:02

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:03

And it brings light into that area. And who am I to say that I can't do that? That that would be wrong. Because to me, that's not wrong. Yeah. To me, that's bringing in light where there is darkness. Yeah. And only good can come from that.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:21

So why not try? And it's not gonna hurt me any to not do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:26

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. I mean, it was mentioned in the book that there there is a man. He used to be in the military, and he's a medium, and um, he's very Rob uh Graves, the owner, uh, finds him highly accurate. Highly. And he I think it was him that basically told Rob and Vicky that, you know, the over the years the happenings have calmed down. Like it still happens, but it's not as prevalent. And as long as they are there and keep replacing that negative energy with their positive energy, it's gonna get less and less. Because it's already working that way since they've lived there, see. So yeah. So it that's proof that you know your positive energy can outweigh the negative. Can outweigh the bad and negative and dark.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:34

Well, the the darkness cannot exist in the light, it's just not possible.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:39

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:41

So um, if you have read this book or have met Richard, or just would love to investigate or have investigated Fox Hollow Farm, let us know. And as

Would We Investigate And Why

SPEAKER_02 1:43:55

always, stay ghosty, my peeps.